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harboe69
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PostSubject: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:11 pm

In my opinion this feat should not be allowed on a PVP server.......alls we are going to get is strength based characters so we can take this feat. And in PVP alls it takes is one critical hit and you not making a forttude save and your dead. It would make alot of people leave because you are going to get power builds that this is all they use. As for the other classes that cant get this like mages and such then what are we going to do to balance them. Or rogues that have to give up alot of thier dex to get it. It is just a feat that i feel on a PVP server should not be allowed as it is an unfair advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:50 pm

harboe69 wrote:
In my opinion this feat should not be allowed on a PVP server.......alls we are going to get is strength based characters so we can take this feat. And in PVP alls it takes is one critical hit and you not making a forttude save and your dead. It would make alot of people leave because you are going to get power builds that this is all they use. As for the other classes that cant get this like mages and such then what are we going to do to balance them. Or rogues that have to give up alot of thier dex to get it. It is just a feat that i feel on a PVP server should not be allowed as it is an unfair advantage.

...Are you implying mages/rogues will be building Dev Crit to counter dev crit? Let's look at the requirements.

NWN Wiki wrote:
Prerequisite: strength 25+, cleave, great cleave, improved critical (weapon to be chosen), overwhelming critical (weapon to be chosen), power attack

If a rogue is trying to get Dev Crit, they will be gimping their rogueishness a fair bit in order to achieve this. If they do build for it, fine. Guess what counters rogues? Any spell that has a Fortitude/Will Save. Just because I take Rogue class levels does not mean I am built for stealth. They will excel at killing other players, so be it. Mages don't need to 'be balanced' in order to compete, they've always had an advantage over melee characters with their wide assortment of spells that deal with them.

If you're that worried about power builds who specifically go for Dev Crit, then you are worried about players who are not putting RP above all else. You know what counters this kind of player?

Dungeon Masters.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:08 pm

I do not see why people are complaining. . . .since i was the one to test it out for Tim and this is how the DC works. . . . 10+half your total lvl + str mod. . .And a mage can get this instent death spells alot higher then a DC 45 and I don't know why you all are complaining again. . .seeing as 1 THIS IS A PVE SERVER not a PvP. . . . . .2 most people can make that save unless they roll a one and this gives meele player a chance to do what mages and clerics can do and kill things easily. . .. its not a high DC unless your looking for a power build then your exploting it. . . like even if a rogue gets it. . guess what thier DC will be low. So enough of the complaining on a feat that wouldn't have been allowed on a PvP server when this is a PVE server. . .and you know what. . . if your RP leads up to you being attacked. . . .thats your fault
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 am

As Hiddukel has said this is in BETA to both see how the feat is implemented on our server. This had been debated upon greatly by the DM staff and despite different opinions we do feel that this should be given a chance. The reason is not to give people an edge in PVP but to allow those who chose to build a melee not be limited on their survival. This change is to allow players to be able to better fight a PVE setting. If players wish to pursue a more PVP route this is fine as long as they adhere to the server rules regarding PVP. And while this change is now allowed we will be keeping a closer eye to ensure the feat isn't taken advantage of for those that only wish to make a powerbuild and bully others. If such behavior is seen it will be dealt with, however I would like all that at one point may have wished for this feat in their build to enjoy the change.

Please keep the feedback on this coming however, also keep it civil while on the forums. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:03 am

harboe69 wrote:
In my opinion this feat should not be allowed on a PVP server.......alls we are going to get is strength based characters so we can take this feat. And in PVP alls it takes is one critical hit and you not making a forttude save and your dead. It would make alot of people leave because you are going to get power builds that this is all they use. As for the other classes that cant get this like mages and such then what are we going to do to balance them. Or rogues that have to give up alot of thier dex to get it. It is just a feat that i feel on a PVP server should not be allowed as it is an unfair advantage.

well. . .its probably a good thing that this is suppose to be a rp and pve server. . not a pvp server. Secondly, there are already a great many power builds here with saves in the high 40's to 60's, dev crit works like this : 10 + ½ character level + strength modifier , there fore the majority of people playing here who would use it for pvp would be hurting a great deal to kill most things with it, to include players. And you are required to sacrifice a great deal to get dev crit, to include stat points and feats. Yeah, it would probably give fighters a little more use in combat, and maybe some one wants to make a horrid mage or rogue with it, but all and all its just a little incentive for those who want it. Besides, if the opinion is that this is a pvp server, then we have a long way to go in fixing that tarnish and stain.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:05 am

harboe69 wrote:
In my opinion this feat should not be allowed on a PVP server.......alls we are going to get is strength based characters so we can take this feat. And in PVP alls it takes is one critical hit and you not making a forttude save and your dead. It would make alot of people leave because you are going to get power builds that this is all they use. As for the other classes that cant get this like mages and such then what are we going to do to balance them. Or rogues that have to give up alot of thier dex to get it. It is just a feat that i feel on a PVP server should not be allowed as it is an unfair advantage.



This is NOT a PvP Server or be under action. We are RP PvE Server last Step if must be is PvP is that last line to be crossed from results of RP then it happens.


And Dev Crit so far testing On NPC i found my DC- with one build is a DC-52 Fort. And yet I battle one time with in PvP and that was after a lot of RP was done and even then i used Sudual because was not out to Kill the person. And the fight took place I Stopped and when person was near Death. RP ed some more walked away.


So this Server being flagged a PvP then there a lot of miss understanding When says on the Signs 100% dedicated Role Play Server


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harboe69
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:31 am

Yes it is a RP server and that is completely understandable. But for a Dragonlance server it is also a PVP server. Two main factions on any dragonlance server are the KOS and Dragon Armies/ Knights of Tahkisis. With those two factions having wars and battling against good and evil then there are going to be PVP battles against the factions. What is the point of having the factions and guilds if thier arent going to be battles. That is part of Dragonlance. Are we just suppose to RP that we fought? Or do we just post on the forums of these battles that never actually happened on the server? If that is the case then just make the guilds as NPC guilds and everyone else just be commoners as characters. And why would we need rules outlining PVP rules.......why not just one rule saying this is not a PVP server and leave it at that? Or set the server options to not allow PVp whatsoever. That is easily done.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:13 pm

harboe69 wrote:
Yes it is a RP server and that is completely understandable. But for a Dragonlance server it is also a PVP server. Two main factions on any dragonlance server are the KOS and Dragon Armies/ Knights of Tahkisis. With those two factions having wars and battling against good and evil then there are going to be PVP battles against the factions. What is the point of having the factions and guilds if thier arent going to be battles. That is part of Dragonlance. Are we just suppose to RP that we fought? Or do we just post on the forums of these battles that never actually happened on the server? If that is the case then just make the guilds as NPC guilds and everyone else just be commoners as characters. And why would we need rules outlining PVP rules.......why not just one rule saying this is not a PVP server and leave it at that? Or set the server options to not allow PVp whatsoever. That is easily done.


Please don't get me wrong we Do PvP. I love it my self. But avoid it best I can. We are a RP Server first and and PvP if RP leads that way it is be it. But we do not PvP for the sake of it. It the Rp -May- Lead to it.

I for one am not going to watch a player Kill NPC knights or Elves or trash a place I defend and chat with them why they should Stop it. .No far from it.

As any of my chars if my faction being attacked or place I love is being smashed up. The person(s) get two fair very clear warning IN RP, they don't Stop I start cracking Skulls All in RP mind you. But still its RP that leads to the PvP. And just be nice I send a OOC tell if they want to pvp or not they don't then ill point the Server rule out they must leave the area simple as that.


I been on hard core Servers they don't need to warn you say something wrong they don't like in RP they can attack away ready or not they can attack you. Here I give the option to Players that wish only to RP and PvE.

PvP is choice both sides must agree to. ONLY exception to this is your Char Contracted for a assassin hit dislike PvP not, you can be attacked with fair warning. And this ONLY happens if there a Contract on you. Which DM's are kept Informed of who has contracts out on who. We wont warn players even OOC there one on them.

ruins the what the Smeg?! Factor in RP

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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:52 pm

It stands to reason that a straight Warrior build of like 30 ftr/10WM, would be skilled enough in the art of combat, to know the best places to hit their opponent to incapacitate them. I have always viewed it as a "Lucky Strike" type of thing. Kind of like in the movie troy, when hector is facing Patricles on the beach in the guise of Achiles. Hector swung his sword, without really thinking, and sliced Patricles throat, effectively, dev critting him.

Like it was stated, a roll of a one would need to be made in order to fail the save vs. Dev Crit, and that is not likely to happen often, unless the game engine for dice rolls just doesnt like you in PvP. In PvE, who cares. We already have builds with weapons that do 100+points of DMG per hit. So alot of monsters are going to get crushed in a few blows anyway, so Dev crit in PvE is really a non issue as far as I see it.

In PvP, it should be the result of deep RP, not just "You looked at me the wrong way. AAARRRRGGGHHH!" Also, not everyone is going to have it. I doubt a Rge/SD type build is going to sacrifice other feats, and skill points to get the dev feat. If you make threats, and harrass, and generally run your mouth, then take your chances is how I see it.

But, it was said, that Dev crit was discussed DM side, and began beta testing at the same time this post was made. I think, it should be a poll made, and let the players decide, then take the action to either allow, or continue to dissallow the feat, and the server has gone this long without it. Another month for a poll wont hurt. This is just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:56 pm

LordSith wrote:
It stands to reason that a straight Warrior build of like 30 ftr/10WM, would be skilled enough in the art of combat, to know the best places to hit their opponent to incapacitate them. I have always viewed it as a "Lucky Strike" type of thing. Kind of like in the movie troy, when hector is facing Patricles on the beach in the guise of Achiles. Hector swung his sword, without really thinking, and sliced Patricles throat, effectively, dev critting him.

Like it was stated, a roll of a one would need to be made in order to fail the save vs. Dev Crit, and that is not likely to happen often, unless the game engine for dice rolls just doesnt like you in PvP. In PvE, who cares. We already have builds with weapons that do 100+points of DMG per hit. So alot of monsters are going to get crushed in a few blows anyway, so Dev crit in PvE is really a non issue as far as I see it.

In PvP, it should be the result of deep RP, not just "You looked at me the wrong way. AAARRRRGGGHHH!" Also, not everyone is going to have it. I doubt a Rge/SD type build is going to sacrifice other feats, and skill points to get the dev feat. If you make threats, and harrass, and generally run your mouth, then take your chances is how I see it.

But, it was said, that Dev crit was discussed DM side, and began beta testing at the same time this post was made. I think, it should be a poll made, and let the players decide, then take the action to either allow, or continue to dissallow the feat, and the server has gone this long without it. Another month for a poll wont hurt. This is just my opinion.





I don't know my Silvan elves are like you looked me the wrong way you Non Silvan, Less them Scum, Dirt of the bottom of my boot time to die now, many times And there NG Some are even LG. They was brought up to hate and look down and have the I am better then you all thinking. Razz

That beside the point here. As i said in the post that said Dev crit unbanned ist in Beta testing. So far no complaints. They start coming then DM side will talk of the pole and Players and DM alike will vote keep or stay after.


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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:59 pm

I do have to agree, if your going to take away dev crit, then take away all death magic too....and im a DC caster cleric saying this.

if i can snap someones neck with divine magic from 20 feet, why cants a soldier cut my head off
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:54 am

Im not going to lie. . .DC 52. . .thats nice but anyways thats besides the point. . . .As it was stated before. unless your a mage or Rogue guess what. . . the only way you can fail the DC is if your roll a 1. . . . . .don't get me wrong my main can fail tim's DC because i had to sacrifice some things to get where the toon is now. . . .How ever, you should complain about 1 feat and whine because you rolled a 1 and died. . . 1s do happen. even monsters roll a 1 at times. but still. the DC will drop once the gear is balanced. like if you ask me. . . .there is no way a paladin or blackgard. . . . . or CHoT for that matter should even complain about not being able to pass the saves. . . .Im sorry have you seen the BG gear!!!!!! I made one for SnGs once. . . by lvl 30 my saves were in the 50s. . . . . .So ya the only way that toon would have failed anything is by rolling a 1. . . .Besides if you take the feats for Dev crit why not be able to take it? its like saying no caster is able to take and insta death spells. . .which means no hellball. no FoD no Wail No wired No slay living no drown no implosion no destruction no phantasmal killer and. its a PvE server and i can agree with tim on the Hardcore server. . . .playing on Ravenloft will change ya. why because i have played on it. and guess what people will set up shops and if you steal from them they WILL kill you right there. . . if someone doesn't like you and is out to get you they WILL kill you. no warning no nothing. And i have done it before. . . . . .Rp lead up to it Some one pissed the wrong person off and put someone elses life at risk. . .so guess what. I kill the person causing the problem burnt his body and dumbed the ashes at the bottom of a well. . . .So do complain and say that this is a PVP server. . . yes we have aposing faction. . . . every server has them. but the fact that there is not many people on and the fact that i have never once seen a DA or a knight of (insert whatever here) fight. . . . Nope. i have seen them party together and all. . .if you want someone that will join the DA and will fight the knights. . . . .I can make one. . . .But i don't like PvP because i had to play WoW and i got tired of seeing lvl 70s kill lvl 10s because they are the aposing faction. . . . . . .as tim know me in game. I play many diffrent toons each having thier own RP completely diffrent from each other Only one will flat out kill people if the character really wishes. . . but even still if i wanted to do that i would still give a heads up warning to the player saying something like. hey watch your back or something along the lines. . . .and if they say i do not want to pvp . . . .well. . . then i go take it out on some mobs. . .But still hearing this called a PvP server is a huge laugh. I think i got a little off topic somewhere in there buuut. . oh well. Oh and something else with the hardcore server even on this server. . .last i checked the forums the whole large group thing wasn't against the rules true. . but if i remember correctly evil shouldn't be in the same party as good. yet again take ravenloft for example. . . .no one makes a party. . . .you can not invite people to the party because that would give players a chance to meta game and just magicly now has a reason to go to your location. so if you know your evil and you think the person sending you a invite is good. don't join it. this part only being brought up as a prime example of a DA highlord in a party travaling with holy knights..


I realise it may be much and some of it might be off topic.but i wanted to hit a few key points long story short. . . . .complain all you want it wont get you anywhere. . .and rolling a 1 does happen. . .you do not argue with the dice.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:36 am

Some lovely information. The following does not include Tensers, or 50% conceal from Imp invis.

PURE BUILDS

Full Int wizard with epic focuses - Conclave gear
Banshees (Evo) - DC 50
FoD (Necro)- 47
Crushing hand (Evo) - 63??
Fort - 37
40ac 27ab (buffed) + Epic Warding and shields



Full Wis Cleric - Cleric gear + Dmetal shield/sword
Implode (Evo) -50
Destruction (Necro) -47
Fort 48
Ac51 Ab58 (Buffed)

37Rogue/3SD - Kagonesti gear
63AC 52Ab Epic dodge
37 Fort


20Druid/20Monk - Best gear
AC 107 AB -51 Buffed Dragon shape
Fort - 41


40 Monk - Dex/SR - Best gear
AC 78 Ab 54 Epic Dodge
Fort 41 SR -66

10Fighter/30DD
66AC 52AB
Fort - 59

POWER BUILDS

15Pal / 18COT / 7 Wm - STR/CHA hybrid
72AC 78AB
66fort Dev Crit - 44DC


15Ranger/7WM/18Assassin
77AC 63AB Epic dodge
Fort 40


6Rogue/15Cleric/19WM
AC 74 AB 80 (Buffed)
Fort -46






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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:19 am

% to Fail
For every 1 you need to roll to make a save, you have a 5% chance to fail it. (1d20 = 20 X 5% = 100%)
IE, if you require atleast a 11 to save, you have a 50% chance to fail. ( 5% x 10)



Spellcraft - Gives 1 save vs spells for every 5, meaning Clerics, Druids and Mages will generally only have a 5% fail chance vs spells.

Sneak attacks - Sneak attacks only happen if the player Target is not attacking Player Attacker or if Player Target does not have sneak attack immunity. Premonition gives Sneak Attack immunity and is available to all players 1 use per days.

Death Magic - All decent DC level Death spells are fort based and include Spellcraft bonus. Death magic is countered with immunities available too all players through pots (Death ward/ Shadow Shield). Implosion is not counted as Death Magic.


Devastating Crit - With an average of 44ish Fort, that means there is a 35% chance of instantly dieing evey single crit. Crit chance for a WM is between 50% and 35% on successful double hit. (Hit and Crit roll)

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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:29 pm

No Dev Crit, than no death spells. nuf said
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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:30 pm

Will monsters and NPC's be able to dev crit players?
That would keep it interesting...

On the subject of dev crit and game balance - would it be possible to alter the automatic fail on a roll of 1/20 to a 1/100? Or even disable automatic fail altogether? Because the main problem with dev crit is not that the save is hard to make but that 1 is too easy to roll I think.

Also dev crit can't be compared to death magic on this server because immunity to death magic is easily obtainable by all classes.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule regarding Dev Crit.   Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:09 am

Snuffleupaguss wrote:
Will monsters and NPC's be able to dev crit players?
That would keep it interesting...

On the subject of dev crit and game balance - would it be possible to alter the automatic fail on a roll of 1/20 to a 1/100? Or even disable automatic fail altogether? Because the main problem with dev crit is not that the save is hard to make but that 1 is too easy to roll I think.

Also dev crit can't be compared to death magic on this server because immunity to death magic is easily obtainable by all classes.


Yes to NPC will have Dev Crit. DC will NOT be high on them, but some will have it ( Lord Soth -Will never have it- )

No on the 1-100 its always been based on a d 20 roll/ NWN is based on the d20 System.

And ant death potions are not no so easy to find any more there out there but not saying where.

And no we always Keep the fear of the rolled a 1 on a d20. in short is a 1- 20 chance you will die. Boils down to the dice keeping you alive or not.

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