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Zerimous_Cyndre
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PostSubject: HIPS and common misconceptions   Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:05 pm

I have heard chatter that HIPS is to be nerfed because it is unbalanced and unfair. This statement is not true. HIPS is countered by spot AND listen, which means the non hider gets 2 chances to see the hidden. If one does not build their character in order to use spot or listen correctly, how is that unbalancing? Under this same line of thought, I can argue that Knockdown is unfair because my rogues cannot access discipline as a class skill. Oh wait, I knew this and made sure I chose feats and skills that grant me more of a chance in melee with them. Just as any character that is going into pvp needs to expect they may run into a HIPS user and prepare accordingly. (I will speak on the broken nature of true seeing later, so I am omitting it here.)
Casters- if you want to mess a rogue up, cast any spell that blinds or deafens him, he takes a minus to his h/s, m/s under these effects and while the rogue is in darkness it gives you time to prepare other things.
Wiz/Sorc- put up a dmg shield- the rogue that attacks a mage with acid sheath or elemental shield on is dead quick, his hp's are low because he is a rogue. Suicide by mage.
Clerics, have a harm or 2 on reserve. All you need to do is get the spell off once and the rogue is done.
For fighters it is harder because the rogue class is designed to counter a fighters brute force, but you guys get to spam knockdown, so you might get lucky, but if not, don't cry, just move on, you cannot win every fight. If you could there would be no need for other classes. I don't see fighters crying about bigbies, because if your str is high enough, it wont work on you. (That threshold is around 42 btw).
Rangers Rogues and Monks- Use your doggone skill points to prepare for a HIPS user.
HIPS is not broken, people are just in the dark as to how it is countered.(Like that)

Now true seeing. If this spell effected only the caster, I would have no gripe about it being able to see through a high level rogues hide, but that is not the case. The reason I do not like this spell is because it makes it possible for an 11th mage to determine the outcome of a 40th pvp event. That is the very definition of unbalanced. I do not even have a problem with someone who has 3 levels of wizard or bard trying to bust true seeing out with a scroll. If they get lucky enough that the spell works, then I deserve a beating because they are using an aspect of the class to overcome adversity.

I do spam HIPS I will not deny it, but knockdown gets spammed as well and no one is up in arms about it. I am also a good sport, as most dm's and any player that has ever thrown me a beating know well. At the end of the day the game is about fun, and I like being a sneaky little coward and massaging the livers of unsuspecting seekers Smile, and if HIPS is nerfed to once every 30 seconds or some ridiculous time frame it will encourage me to seek my fun elsewhere. It is not a threat and I am not trying to bully you into any decision, it is just a statement of fact. I like playing HIPS builds and if they are destroyed it will lessen the fun for me, even though I do truly love this server, which has been demonstrated by my game time and the 4 (almost 5) lv 40 characters I have here.

Most of us have played on "the server that shan't be named" and we know they were some crazy rules nazi's when it suited them, and their rules were arbitrarily enforced when they did not like a particular player, and it ruined an otherwise rich server full of content. That server is now only played on by the admin staff. There is another DL server, KNB, that disallows the use of HIPS in pvp. Consequently the only pvp builds on that server are WM or Smiter builds, they also outlawed more than 10 lvs of RDD. These rules heavy environments are only fun for the rule makers, and are mostly populated only by admin.

In closing I would like to offer assistance to anyone that wants to build a character that is designed to overcome the HIPS user. I love a challenge, that's what invis pots are for ;]. I do not think there is any need to nerf HIPS at all. Further I would be happy with True Seeing being left alone with a simple rule of courtesy that players do not run in and cast it on everyone or meta game and have a low level guy come in to save the day for a lv 40 fighter. The reason I take this stance is because a lv 40 cleric or mage should beat any lv rogue into dust and if true seeing is one of their tools, it is my fault for running up on you and issuing a challenge.

Those are just some thoughts I have, please feel free to add your own, but I am begging this not be turned into a 10 page gripe session, lets all be polite to one another.
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Zerimous_Cyndre
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PostSubject: oki doki arti choki   Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:10 am

not all rogues are hips spammers either, that doesn't mean that they do not exist. Every time i fight a fighter that has an str build, they spam knockdown, without exception. that is because it is what they are supposed to do. Hiders hide, smiters smite, knockers knockdown, it is how the world works. If you regulate HIPS with a time limit then you remove the fun of the rogue. If you throw in a ton of spot gear that makes no sense, then you are going against rp stuff for that faction.
Question. Are you telling me that a plate warrior who, in rp, is always steeped in battle, with death all around him, and is supposed to be commanding troops, has the forethought to be looking for sneaks? I submit he does not and that his subordinates do that job for him. I agree the CPT. gear should have spot bonuses, but I do not think the Leader gear should. Just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: HIPS and common misconceptions   Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:35 am

Not every warrior build uses "Knockdown" I do not even have the skill on mine. So you saying everyone uses it "no exceptions" is false. As to the you working in a "Blind Spot" and attacking over and over again. Not possable in a PvP in broad daylight to an also high level warrior skilled in battle. Once the PvP has been engaged and the warrior is aware of the rogue's attacks. For said rogue to then re-aquire Hips would be next to imposable as it is a "skill" not a "spell" and as such not engagable after an PvP attack. For to even engage in Hips the rogue has to be able to "Blend into his/hers surroundings as to not be easily seen by others" Hips = Hide in Plain sight, skill not spamable PvP attack mode more of a possable escape mode or evasion after dis-engaging from a PvP. They are meant to be "Sneaks" as such even as an "Assassin" that uses Hips would once they engaged in a PvP would be known, and therfore now seen once the attack is initiated and they have "Stepped out of the shadows to engage in melee" to then once again use their Hips skill would be extreamly difficult at that time since the "victem" is now activily seeking their attacker.

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Zerimous_Cyndre
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PostSubject: You misunderstood   Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:03 am

I did not say all fighter builds use knockdown, but the knockdown builds do because that is what they are for. I am sorry that you truly believe a skill should not be usable just because you can't get past it. That is a very short sighted view of how gaming works. I was beaten by Shiv last night and I am not whining that improved critical is cheap because it is a random 25% chance I take triple dmg. I am not on here arguing that double threat range and extra x modifier for crit damage are unfair. I suck it up, take the defeat, joke with the one that beat me and move on. Why not have some character and accept that you are responsible for not being able to overcome someone that uses HIPS.

Most of this is a moot argument as the changes have been determined and they go into effect on the next update, but I just do not understand the mentality that you are coming at me with. HIPS is the only defense or effective offense a rogue can employ to fight a warrior build, whether they use KD or not. If it is your contention that we should only be able to use hips when entering a fight and then if we use it again we are retreating and lose the pvp session, there is a DL server with that exact rule, but there are no rogue pvpers there. Why advocate reducing the fun and effectiveness of other players just because a build you like can't counter what they are specialized in. Also, for the record, it is not merely a skill. I will list the things I have done to be a mediocre HIPS user with this build, that's right, I am not even a highly skilled sneaker.
I had to use 2 skill focus feats before lv 20.
I have only applied ability points to my dex in order to get it high, which means my hp's suffer big time. I generally have 3/5's the hp of the people I fight.
I used 2 epic skill focus' to get the abilities up
I have used Great dexterity 4 times to get dex up (so 6 epic feats all together)
Took 3 levels in a class just to get the lv 1 ability, so there are 2 levels of class that could have been rogue, and would give me more damage.

It is not correct to leave the impression that I just "got" an ability by luck of the class. I had to work to get it where it is and sacrifice in other aspects of my classes abilities in order to use it.
I do not know what build you use, but I am sure it has advantages that make it a sweet build for you. I know true Smiter builds have rotten str and crazy cha, but that makes them smite for 800 dmg, 1 shot 1 kill. Is that build unfair? I submit that no builds are unfair, it is all in how you use them, and restricting an ability solely because your build doesn't counter it sounds a little short sighted and immature.

MATT- you are really really ridiculously good looking.
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PostSubject: bahahahahahaha   Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:48 pm

Bahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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PostSubject: Re: HIPS and common misconceptions   Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:58 pm

Heck with it, from now on I am only playing bards.
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